Episode #24 – How Joe Cordes Went From The NYPD To Successful Real Estate Investor

You're listening to the REI Marketing Nerds podcast, the leading resource for real estate investors who want to dominate their market online. Dan Barrett is the founder of Ad Words Nerds, a high tech digital agency focusing exclusively on helping real estate investors like you get more leads and deals online, outsmart your competition and live a freer, more awesome life. And now, your host, Dan Barrett.

Dan: Alright, I am here with Joe Cordes. He is from CoMax Properties. You can find him at www.webuyhousesfastlongisland.com.

Joe, how are you, man? Welcome to the show!

Joe: I'm doing good, Dan. Glad to finally speak to you. I've been looking forward to this.

Dan: Yeah… I know we were trying to schedule this, and then we kind of got trapped in the holidays and all this stuff, so I'm glad we're able to finally jump on the phone. [0:01:04.4] Joe, why don't we start kind of at the beginning. Now you're an investor. You're out in Long Island. You're doing a whole bunch of different things out there, and it seems like you've got a pretty nice investing business kind of humming along, but how did you get into real estate investing in the first place? What was your introduction to that whole industry?

Joe: It actually goes back a while. When I was about, maybe between 22 and 24 years old, me and my brother had bought a two-family house. My father was a New York City firefighter, and he was always looking for an investment, and he and my mother had saved up some money, and they bought a two-family house, and they were like, this is really good, and even at that young age, my parents just kind of were explaining about depreciation, and my father had had a friend who had done very well at real estate. Back then I had formalized in law enforcement in the NYPD, and I went out on that job when I was 20 years old, so me and my brother were living at home, we had a pretty good income back then. [0:02:07.3] He was also a police officer, and we kind of were banking money, and we were working a lot back then, it was the mid-1980s and New York was very busy, and we kind of had some cash, so we were like, you know what? Let's go in together and buy an investment property, and we did that, and in our minds back then, that was really going to be the first of many, and I had read Trump's book back then, The Art of the Deal, and it was right around that time, and I was really fired up about it, and that was always kind of the plan. Then what ended up happening, we went out to try to leverage that property. We started to… There was a little bit of a recession at the time, but it was very difficult to get, you know? It was also the knowledge base. I was going to Citibank, looking to fund… I was going to regular banks to try to get funding, and they were just like, you're not even close. Like, you've got to build a lot more equity up in this property, and we kind of had a couple of starts and fails, and then we kind of stopped, me and my brother, and at the same time, my career in law enforcement was going, I was studying for promotional exams, and the real estate thing was on the back burner for like 10 years, and then I started to always have a hand in things. [0:03:18.7] I would look at a house, I would make an offer, but it very sporadic, and then when I got near the end of the career, 20 years later, I always had this thing where I wanted to get back into real estate, but I left law enforcement, I took a job in Manhattan, suit and tie, get on a train every day kind of job, which was a rude awakening for me, having lived in my former life where I never had to really do that, and I hated it. I did it for two years, and I was miserable, and I stood on a train platform every day in my suit, just kind of thinking about jumping every time a train was coming in, you know? And I had young kids and I was working a lot of hours, and I had always worked a lot of hours in law enforcement, and I was newly married and had young kids. [0:04:05.3] I was just like, I'm not getting any younger, and I made the decision then to pull the plug and bail and do real estate. I made that decision very quickly and just did it. As they say, burned the boats, and just jumped in. That was about five years ago.

Dan: Wow! I mean, so first of all…

Joe: I know I rambled on for a while there!

Dan: Well, first of all, your family is friggin' bad ass because you're like New York City Fire Department, your dad is in the fire department, and both you and your brother were police officers, that's what you're saying?

Joe: Yeah, actually my third brother was too. All three of us, yeah.

Dan: Wow! That is amazing. So that is amazing in and of itself. I want to kind of… I'm so curious because I think so many people today, myself included, really take for granted the fact that there is so much information about real estate investing that you can get, right? [0:05:07.8] I mean, you can go on BiggerPockets, you can go wherever… You can get like a million and one people that are going to tell you nine different ways you can go find properties and get funding and all that stuff.

What was interesting to me about that story is you guys are going out… Your dad had some connections with the real estate thing, but how were you getting your information on how to do it? Were you doing mail order stuff to get that information? Was it just like you're going out and figuring it out by just trying to do it and people turning you down? What was your… How were you getting the direction back when you originally got started?

Joe: Yeah, that's right. I can go also into that too now that you brought that up. It makes me actually think back on it. There was no web. I bought that first house in 1988. There was no internet, there was no cell phones, there was no emails, no text. [0:06:02.6] It was mail order and books. I read The Art of the Deal. That's not going to teach me how to buy single-family houses or two-family houses in Queens, New York where I bought my first house that was written by a guy… You know who he is…

Dan: Yeah, I've heard of him! But, I don't know, I've heard of him!

Joe: You've heard of the guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah… And you know, he was riding high then. That wasn't really teaching me anything. It was just more of like an inspirational-type thing, like look at this guy. He was able to do it. You had that, and then I read a couple of books. It was almost like we had… My father had one friend, and he had four 4-family houses in Brooklyn, and it kind of took off on him, and he became a millionaire within 2 years on these properties, and he was a guy… My father would call him, but he wasn't certainly a person who was a mentor, someone that I could call. You're absolutely right. We stumbled along and just tried to figure it out. I'm one of those people if someone knows something, I'm always like the dumbest guy in the room, I will chew their ear off at a party until they have to fake a seizure to get away from me…[0:07:08.7]

Dan: [laughter]

Joe: I'm like…… You know… My wife is sometimes rolling her eyes, like let this poor guy go! I'm like, no, he knows things… This guy knows things!

Dan: Well, that's the way you want to be, right? I mean, that's like… You know you're… I always say you want to be like not the smartest person in the room that you're in, right?

Joe: Right, right.

Dan: Because you… That's such a huge advantage. I think a lot of people are just afraid to ask. They're afraid to ask people, how did you
do that? I think that's a big advantage.

Joe: Yeah, so that's what I would do. I would ask people. But you're right, I read a couple of books. They weren't great. Unfortunately… Not unfortunately, it is what it is… New York is such a different animal sometimes so the books that I would read, unless they were things that I would read, unless they were like a person who was operating regionally here in New York or Long Island, it just didn't… It was a different thing, you know what I'm saying? [0:08:03.9] Because, and that's one of kind of the big things in New York, is everything is really overshadowed by the fact it is attorney by law, any real estate closing, at a residential closing, everybody has to have an attorney. You can't just go to a title company, and it is really kind of a game changer if that's why sometimes information from other parts… Not now, because there is so much information out there and very little of it is about that…

Dan: Yeah…

Joe: But back then, you really had to speak to people in the market. It was a different world then too, Dan, you know. It's different now. People are willing to share. They're a little more open. They see the value of that. Back then, nobody would tell you anything.

Dan: Right.

Joe: I know it's a general statement, but it was just a different kind of culture. Aw, you know, you'll figure it out… They told me things like that. It was kind of tough, and then I had a career, and I was working full time, and I was working 60 hours a week, and it kind of petered off, but I would always somewhat come around, and I'd go out and make some offers, and it wouldn't pan out because I wasn't investing the time. [0:09:14.4]

Dan: Let me ask you about that. You were talking about… I really like you're sort of painting that picture of you are standing on the subway in the suit, and it reminded me so much of when I got out of college, I commuted… I live in Connecticut, so I commuted into the city to apply for a job. I was wearing a suit my dad bought me. It was like two sizes too big, and I was standing on the subway platform and just being like…

Joe: Right…

Dan: I don't know… Is this actually what I want to do? You know what I mean?

Joe: Right.

Dan: But it's like, so you're two years. You’ve got a career, you're doing your stuff, but you made the decision like you said to burn the boats and get into real estate investing, and I think for a lot of people, even though they hate their job, they are still having that debate in their head because it's a big jump. [0:10:05.6] What motivated you to actually do that and make that jump? What did you put in place before you went full time and then what made you actually pull that trigger and say, yes, this is what I'm going to do? I'm not going to do the waiting on the subway platform every day. I'm going to do real estate investing instead.

Joe: It was like anything, sometimes. It's a confluence of a few things. Number one: I hate it so much. Number two: I just had my second son. My older guy was maybe 4, and I worked a lot, and I didn't see him, and it always bothered me, and it always bothered my wife. Now, I had a second son, and it was going to be a repeat thing. That was A, the number one thing. Number two, you know what happens? You get older. When you're younger, you're like there's always tomorrow and oh, I'll do it then, I'll do it then. I had gotten older now, and now I was so tired of working so hard and struggling and working so many hours and being away from my family, it meant more to me now. [0:11:10.6] It's like, I'm running out of time here to try to fix this. Otherwise, I'm just going to play this thing out, and I'm just going to work hard till the end and then just get a little bit of something and… There's less runway now. I'm farther down the runway. It also became that issue. I guess that's what pushed me, and the fact that I had worked so hard for other employers, and that job on the platform, that was a second job I had had actually after law enforcement, but prior to that, I worked for a small business as a sales guy, and I made them a lot of money and I expanded their business a lot, and then when I got to that second job, over two years, same thing. I took over a unit, and boom! I expanded their business. We hired a lot again, and I'm like, wow, I've been killing myself for a long time of other people. [0:12:05.0] And I'm proud of that. I was a good employee. I was a trusted person. People were like, man, that guy will get the job done for you, which is, of course, a good feeling, right?

Dan: Yeah.

Joe: Right. So in that way, that's who I am and that's who my parents raised, and that's how they are, but I was just like, you know what? I never… When you're younger and even when I was in the police department, I moved up through the ranks, and I would always get promotions and I was a single guy for a long time so I always felt like I had a lot of money, but then you know the deal, Dan, right? You get married, you have a couple of kids…

Dan: [laughter]

Joe: And then all of a sudden, you don't feel like you're wealthy anymore, you know?

Dan: Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Joe: Yeah, and I'm not complaining. I have a pension, and I'm comfortable, but I wanted more, and having children made me want to have more for more children, and that made me say, it's not just going to happen. I'm not just going to hit the lottery one day. I've got to buckle down and make a move or I'm never going to get those things that I really wanted out of life. [0:13:05.0] That sort of all came together.
Being at a miserable job, my children, and then just me realizing time is not infinite here, and I was like, I'm out, and I pulled the plug, and I was pretty set up for it. I had had a contract with the place I was at. I knew they were looking to bring somebody else above me, and so I negotiated a nice little severance package, and that was my seed money, and people take much bigger risks in real estate. I had pension and health care from being in the police department, so it's not like I was really laying it out there. You know what I'm saying?

Dan: Yeah.

Joe: We were always going to have that, but it was a definite drop in income, and I was going to have to make it up, and I was going to have to make it up quick, and that's basically how I am where I am now. [0:13:54.0]
Are you an investor who wants to dominate your local market? Do you want more leads and deals online? Then download your copy of the Motivated Seller Blueprint absolutely free at www.AdWordsNerd.com/gift. What are you waiting for? Go to www.AdWordsNerd.com/gift right now to get your copy of the Motivated Seller Blueprint

Dan: So when you made that jump, what were the deal structures that you were doing? Did you get into wholesaling? Did you jump right into flipping? What was the model when you got started? And what's your model right now?

Joe: Like anyone kind of starting out, back then, this was four years ago, I had a two-family house, which I had ended up selling with my brother in 2009. The first thing I said was, oh, I've got to buy a rental. I took some money I had, I borrowed some money from my folks, I went out, and I bought a rental and did like $120,000 renovation. [0:15:02.4] I spent like 10 months doing that, and as I've said a couple times, I get a little long in the tooth, as they say, I realized because I've always done construction on the side, worked on houses I lived in. I used to kind of enjoy that work. Now, it's like wow, I just really killed myself over 10 months physically doing work. This is not the answer. I got the house rented. It is a good rental property. I still have it now. It cash flows very nicely, and I'm like, well, I can't do this because I'll kill myself over 20 years and maybe get 5 or 6 properties, and this is not the answer. So then I was like okay, let me look at flipping houses, and I started that, but right now we have the internet, and I'd start sitting up late at night, 2 or 3 hours, reading articles, BiggerPockets, and looking at training programs, and kind of got into this bank-owned properties because back then you could still buy bank-owned properties, and there was enough of a margin. The first house I bought was a bank-owned property. [0:16:00.2] I went on Craig's List, and I found a guy's ad, it was a realtor, and he was like, I only work with investors, I can get you discounted properties in Long Island, and I called him up, and he had a bunch of investors, and I bought my first house on a, it was an auction site, but he bid for me. I think it was Hubzu maybe or one of those auction sites, and I actually bought it Christmas morning cause the auction…

Dan: [laughter] A little much.

Joe: Yeah, yeah. So like my kids were opening presents. I'm like I'm going to get a little bit more coffee, and I'm going on my phone, and I'm seeing where the bid is…

Dan: [laughter]

Joe: You know, and I'm like, oh, I've got to go to the bathroom…

Dan: You were sneaky about it! I like… That's my favorite part of it! You're like, oh, let me go check on the uh, like the toast or whatever… And you're frantically checking your phone or whatever.

Joe: Checking it to see if my bid goes through, and it did, and I got that first property. What's interesting is how you learn very quickly. I thought the business was you buy a house, you fix it up, you sell, and that's where the margin is, and you work on the house. [0:17:05.2] I used all my own cash to buy the house and to renovate it, which was good because I didn't get myself in trouble with the loan, like a hard money loan, all of that. I did that later on, and then I spent a lot of time working on the house myself. I probably did 50% or 60% of the work, and I sold it, and I made like $32,000, and to me, when, of course, you go into your first one, you just want to do it to learn the process, and I did, and all my numbers were wrong, and I got bailed out basically by the fact… I guess, part of it was a bail out. I did a nice job on the house so it was in demand, but the market was also ascending here in Long Island. It was going up…

Dan: Right.

Joe: And that kind of bailed me out. It sold, as it turned out, I bought it Christmas. I ended up selling it in May, so I'm at the peak of the market, and I got more than I thought I was going to. If got what originally planned on getting, I would have broke even, but because I did well on it, the kind of market bailed me out. [0:18:02.0] I learned, of course, a ton of lessons, and the big lesson being you can't waste your time working on these houses. That's not how you become a millionaire.

Dan: Well, so break that down a little bit because I think there are a significant number of people who are going to be listening to this who are, if not… maybe not looking to do their first deal, but they may be one or two deals in, and I think it can take a while for those lessons to really sink in. So when you say, you learn you can't be spending your time doing all the work, that's not where the margin is. I think a lot of people are thinking, well, no, that's how I'm going to save money. I'm going to do everything myself. That's how I'm going to build the margin. Explain that lesson to the newer investor out there that's thinking, okay, I'm going to buy this property. I'm going to go, I'm going to do all that work myself.

Joe: Uh, okay, yeah, and so what ended up happening, while you're doing that, I guess if you want to do one house a year or two houses a year part time, I actually tell you, you could still do that and make money, really just buy the house cheaper, and enjoy your life. [0:19:07.0] Because part of what that is, is you're working a lot of hours, and if you've got another job like you're trying to get into it, now you're giving up your weekends, maybe you take some vacation and you work on the house. That's the whole point of this. It's about making money, but to me the whole point of it is also it's about freedom. Freeing up your time, right. I didn't care about time as much when I was single, but when I got married, have kids now, now time is more important to me because I want to spend time with my family. I was a bit of a workaholic so it was less important. I guess that's number one. Maybe you'll save a little bit of money, but you're also going to be spending a lot of time, and what's the value of your time. I tell you that a mentor of mine a few years ago, a paid coach, he once said to me, what do you want to make? I had lower aspirations back then, so I think I said I want to make $380,000 a year. [0:20:01.1] He goes, okay,
Joe, and he took his phone out, and I'm doing it right now – I have my phone out – and he said, he typed in $380 on his calculator. He said the average person works 2080 hours a year. That's a 40-hour work week, 2 weeks' vacation, right?

Dan: Um hmm.

Joe: He said, okay, so you want to make $380. You're telling me, as he called it, you're still swinging a hammer because I thought I was winning by swinging a hammer. He said, okay, well you need to make – and I just did the math here – it's $182 an hour. You multiply that by 8. You basically need to be making $1500 a day if you want to make $380,000 a year. He said, how much could you hire a guy to go swing a hammer at one of your properties? I said, I don't know? $225 a day? He goes, okay, look at that. You're never getting to your goal. He says if you take 225 and you multiple it by 28, that's nowhere near the $380,000 you want to make, and that was a very important lesson to me. [0:21:02.4] It's like, okay, man, you really have to think ahead, and you have to do some planning here. If you have a goal to make that, you're clearly not going to make it… You're clearly not going to make it. And that was it. I'm a bit of a control freak, so I have to break free of my old habits. You've got to really delegate and have people do things. One of the things I do now, I have a spreadsheet on every project, and I also put my daily number of what the property costs me to carry. I think that's a real important thing for anybody who is doing rehabs. You have to know what that property costs you on a daily basis and make decisions based on that daily number. I'm sitting in front of one of my properties right now. I know what it is. It's $86 a day. This house cost me with the loan, insurance, utilities, everything that goes in, just if I don't do any work here, it costs me $86 a day. If I get a call from a painter for $2000, and he can start tomorrow, and then I get a call from another painter, and he'll do it for $1500, but he can't start for 8 days, see I need to know what my daily burn rate is, right? [0:22:10.2]

Dan: Yeah.

Joe: Because I'm going with $2000-a-guy-day tomorrow because I'll save $300 and something dollars, and then you make decisions based on that. You start to value your time a lot more. I had a contractor… I used to have a very good contractor who used to do the whole house for you. He works for a lot of investors. He does not do it anymore, and it was great because you would literally go to the closing. He would take the house over. You told him you would give him a couple checks at the end, you pay him, you go to the closing, and it was very, very good, and he saw me once. I had like.. I'm loading like 5 pieces – and I'm a real estate investor, right? I’m loading like 5 pieces of sheet rock in the back of my pickup truck, a handful of tile, and a thing of joint compound, total value of about $55. He was like, where ya' going? I'm like, I'm going to Home Depot. I'm going to return this stuff. He goes, just throw it in the dumpster. I go, uh, I can't do that. That's wasting money, and I'm an environmentalist, solar power on my roof, and I really don't like to be wasteful…[0:23:10.8]

Dan: Right.

Joe: I just said nah, nah, nah, and I just saw him shaking his head, and he does way better than I do, but he said, what are you doing with your time. He goes, you're going to spend 3 hours to get $60, and we're back to what am I valuing myself? At $20 an hour?

Dan: Yeah. I think that is a huge, huge lesson. It's a huge lesson that I think is really hard… I think if you are not in the business of business, it's really hard to understand that. It's funny, it's a totally different context, but it reminds me of like, literally last night, I'm talking to my wife, and it was me and a friend were going to go out and see a movie, and I'm like, oh, he wants to go out Sunday, but I don't know if the movie we want to see is playing Sunday. I have to find a theater where it is playing, and I literally just called… I have a virtual assistant. [0:24:05.4] I just called the virtual assist. I was like, hey, can you just Google around and find a place, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah… Like I sent him a voice message. Just find a place for me and let me know where it is, and then text my friend and let him know. My wife was right next to me, and she was like, I can't believe you did that because you could just Google it. I'm like, yeah, but then I have to think about it, do it, and it's only going to take me 10 minutes, but it's 10 minutes, and I know what I can make per hour, and this is not worth 10 minutes of my time… You know what I mean? It's like…

Joe: Exactly.

Dan: Yeah. I think it's such a huge mindset shift for most people that I think a lot of people never really figure it out, and I love that you have… Breaking it down to what that property costs you per day is… I think that's absolutely brilliant. I think that's great.

Joe: Oh, yeah, thanks, and one last thing. I have a guy, like a full-time employee, who does a lot of my - a jack-of-all trades – who does a lot of the work on the sites, and he is there when contractors are coming in and out. [0:25:11.2] I have at that two- family house, I have a commercial garage, and I've got a ton of tools, because every house I flip, there is always tools in the garage, and I always take them back, and it's like my guy is always trying to throw them out, and I'm like, oh, no, no, no, because it's tough to break through your old habits, you know what I'm saying? I grew up… my parents had to watch the money, and that's who I am, and it will save you in the long run, but it's years and years of that training, you have to fight to get away from it because it's now how you make money out here. You have to learn how to make money, and you see the people doing it. You talk to people who are doing it, and you learn that, and so if you'd have called me a couple of weeks ago, and was like, hey, I've got to go back to the garage, we need this pump jack over here to do this. I'd be like, what, you're going to waste 2 hours going back to the garage and finding that thing and going back out there. I said it's like a $50 item. [0:26:00.6] I said go to Home Depot, there's one like 4 minutes from you, and just go buy one, and he's like, ah, it's so wasteful. I said, well, I'll tell you a little trick. If you feel that bad about it, I won't care if you go back and return it.

Dan: [laughter]

Joe: I go, jack up what you've got to jack. You go right ahead and return it. I'll take the $50 back.

Dan: Ah…

Joe: Right there, that's one of those $86 decisions, right? It doesn't pay. Keep going. You've got to keep these things moving. I guess part of what I'm saying is this is the next level of it. Every time I do a rehab, I get them done quicker. I get better at lining up things. I'm two weeks ahead of the plumber, rather than calling him three days and finding out I've got to wait a week?

Dan: Umm…

Joe: You need to be way ahead of these. What I'll also tell you too is, don't argue with a licensed contractor. If you have a good one, a good electrician, a good licensed plumber, or a good siding or window guy. Don’t argue with them over $200. If it's a $90 an hour job, and you're like, aw, I was hoping to get it for $9000… What will happen is, you move down their list of priorities, and contractors have plenty of work here in Long Island…[0:27:06.4]

Dan: Yeah.

Joe: So what happens is, if you don't nickel and dime them because they do need to make a living, I mean I have to align that also with my own price structure, but I've got pretty good understanding of it, of understanding, it makes it a lot easier when you get a house cheaper. Then you don't have to sweat the details as much. What ends up happening is when you don't nickel and dime them, A, and B, when you pay then immediately and your checks don't bounce, then guess what? If you're calling them and two other house flippers are calling them, you're right up at the top, which means whatever I call my subs, they'll show up here, be like, yeah, I had a couple of other things I pushed them back so we can do this for you, and at $86 a day, if they push you 5 days back…

Dan: Um hmm…

Joe: Because you're squabbling with them over $200. The key is especially when you start taking private money or hard money loans that number gets bigger. It's always ticking out there. It's always ticking, and so… [0:28:00.1]

Dan: That value and that relationship with that contractor over time is worth so much more to you than that $200 you're going to save by nickel and diming, right?

Joe: Right. I'm that guy that… One of the things that I do do, is I will order appliances, and I'll go back before Lowe's and Home Depot and this other kind appliance house here in Long Island that is pretty big. On their websites, it is a psychological thing… It's like I've got to get this under $2000, and I used to be like, oh I can save $13 on this dishwater, and it's like, oh, my God, I look back at those times now, and I'm like what was I doing. You get caught up in that old habits, right?

Dan: Yeah.

Joe: And then you're like, man, I just wasted three hours when I could have been sitting with my kids on the couch, playing Madden with them or whatever. I wasted it buying appliances, and I saved $42.

Dan: Um hmm.

Joe: There are a lot of ways… Sometimes you've got to let it go. [0:29:00.9] I'm getting a good number. That's fine. Time to move on. If I can make $40,000 and squeeze every dollar, or I can make $37,500 and not waste 50 hours on nonsense and calling more contractors than I need to, then that's a poor use of your time. I'm just kind of reiterating the point that too about the contractors. They need to make a living, and if you have a good one, pay them right away, don't squabble over a few bucks, and you've always got to watch the numbers. That's another thing that will keep your projects moving very quickly, and you've got to be in and out of them. In New York… You've got to have your rehabs done 10, 12 weeks because it's a lengthy process to sell them because of the attorneys. From you start you get an accepted offer, by the time you're out of these is another 10 to 12 weeks.

Dan: Yeah.

Joe: With mortgage, appraisal, lawyers, in/out, setting closings. You've really got to be on having the thing on the market no later than 3 months, and you've got to have it sold at the 6-month point and gone because it can also go the other way on you very quickly. [0:30:04.7]

Dan: So, I can literally just keep talking about this because I love your approach to this, but I've got to cut it short because we're coming up on another call that I've got to do. I said this before, but you're buying houses in Long Island right now. People can learn a little bit more about your business at www.webuyhousesfastlongisland.com, and I would just say, take a minute and look up what Joe is doing online. I think you're doing some really good stuff, and we didn't even get into your website and stuff, but I think your website is great. I think you did a great job of personalizing that. I think people should definitely go check that out. Again, that's www.webuyhousesfastlongisland.com.

Joe, thank you so much, man! This was really, really fascinating, and I absolutely love this, and I really appreciate you taking the time and coming on the show.

Joe: Yeah, no problem, Dan! Thanks a lot, man!

Dan: All right, cheers buddy! I'll talk to you soon. [0:31:00.5]

Joe: You got it, bye!