Episode #260 – Mastering The Housing Market with Justin Hartman

You're listening to the REI marketing nerds podcast, the leading resource for real estate investors who want to dominate their market online. Dan Barrett is the founder of AdWords nerds, a high tech digital agency focusing exclusively on helping real estate investors like you get more leads and deals online, outsmart your competition and live a freer, more awesome life. And now, your host, Dan Barrett

0:39 All right, hello, and welcome to this week's episode of the REI marketing nerds podcast. As always, this is Daniel Barrett here from AdWords nerds.com. And look, if you need more leads or deals for your real estate investing business, you know where to go. It's AdWords nerds.com. That is AdWords nerds.com. Alright, folks, this week, man, I am talking this week with Jason Hartman from Jason hartman.com. Now Jason has been in the business for a very long time, you will hear me mention that right in the beginning of the podcast, he and I go way back in some way, shape or form. And he is a fascinating figure if you want to talk about someone who is very data driven and how he makes decisions, very intent on understanding the economy and the way that the economy affects the real estate investing business, someone who's been through the highs and the lows of the market, folks, it's Jason Hartman, he has done it. And he is an active investor actively teaching other investors how to do this day in and day out. Really fascinating character really interesting take on exactly what is happening in the housing market right now. And actually, really put a lot of what I see day to day at AdWords nerds into a larger context. So I get a ton out of this conversation. I know you will, too. So without any further ado, let's get into my interview with Jason Hartman from Jason hartman.com. Jason, welcome to the show, man. So happy to have you here.

2:11 Hey, thanks, Dan. It's great to be here. And I hope to share some good information with your audience about market cycles, the economy, the real estate market predictions as to where it's going, and a little bit of talk about where we've been, because that helps us all understand where we're going, alright, well, I'm pumped to have that conversation. Because I usually say like, you know, I do the marketing piece, and the economy part is above my paygrade. Some whatsoever could explain it to me. Alright, before we get in, I want to just have you give people kind of a sort of 30,000 foot overview of who you are, people don't know you. And I will say before we do that, I searched your name in my email inbox. And I found in 2015, I cold emailed you about running your Google ads. And you are very polite to me. So thank you for Wow, we're still on running Google ads.

3:05 Alright, so anyway, for people who aren't familiar with you and your work, you've been doing this a long time, you're like really well known, I think in the industry. So give people an overview of kind of who you are today, what you've been doing. Sure. So my background is I've been in real estate since I was 19 years old, I got my real estate license, my first year of college, but I got into it because I was interested Dan and becoming an investor. I grew up poor in Los Angeles didn't like being poor very much. And I just always thought real estate was really the right thing, because it allows you to have leverage and to really sort of control a lot more than you can afford to control. And that's one of the great things about income properties specifically. And so I got into the traditional side of the business, I did extremely well with that at a very young age. And then I bought my own company later sold my own company to Coldwell Banker. And for the last 20 years, I have been dedicated exclusively to helping real estate investors build nationwide property portfolios of single family homes. And my company empowered investor serves everybody from the person that's buying their first rental property, and maybe buys one or two properties a year to larger investors, even institutional investors occasionally, that buy many, many properties. And so we teach people about the market, about forecasting, how to understand the market where we are, where we've been, and how to understand investing with some unique ideas about investing, hedging inflation, and really creating wealth through income property was

4:46 super cool. So there's a bunch of things I want to pick on in there that I really want to ask about. You know, we were sort of going back and forth. Before we hit record and we were talking about you were saying like, Oh, you have great charts. seeing great data. And you mentioned forecasting there. So before we jump into the specifics, I would love to pick your brain a little bit about data and thinking in a data driven kind of way. Because I think a lot of people, particularly investors will say, they are a data driven person, when in actuality, it is not always the case of like their behavior is driven by data. So take a step back, you work with so many students, so many investors, you sort of helping them get this mindset.

5:32 Yeah. So you know, the first thing, of course, and you alluded to a Dan, look, as much as we'd like to believe we are illogical, we're all human. And we're emotional creatures. And we largely make decisions based on our emotions, and then we justify them with logic, okay, that's just human nature, it's probably never gonna change. It's probably always been that way. And so, you know, what I tried to do is really help people understand the market and make good decisions based on that, you know, there has been so much doom and gloom or fear porn, as people call it. You know, during the COVID era, a new phrase came up to describe all the people that believe the sky is falling, and we call them the crash bros. Okay. And so the crash Bros. and the Doomers have just been wrong, wrong wrong over and over again. And that's the last, I mean, I can definitely remember coming out of the Great Recession. So the last 14 years, 15 years, you know, everybody has been thinking, Oh, my gosh, you know, the market is just going to crash, crash crash. And really, they've been thinking that for much longer, if you go back 250 years, there was an economist named Malthus, who thought that the world was going to run into a period of mass famine, and the human race would basically be wiped out because of overpopulation. And the environmental movement picked up on that. And they've been saying this for decades and decades and decades. You know, during the 70s, there was a lot of doom and gloom, there were a lot of people saying, peak oil, peak energy. You know, Jimmy Carter was sort of a doom and gloom er, President really. And, you know, they they've just been wrong over and over, because these people don't account for the fact that humans interact with their situation.

And every morning, pretty much, 8 billion people wake up. And they're driven largely by one dominant thought, no matter who they are, or what their station in life, his the dominant thought of every human being, always, pretty much of course, there's an exception is this thought, how can I improve my situation? So and, you know, let's just give some examples of that. If they're an alcoholic, their improvement of situation is getting their next drink. Okay? If they're a drug addict, it's getting their next fix. If they're a business Titan and successful entrepreneur, how can I make my next deal? If they're lonely? How can I find a relationship? Right? If they're unhealthy? How do I get healthy, right? Everybody is just motivated by the idea of how can I improve my situation. And since thankfully, the vast majority of the world now lives under capitalism, the only legal way you can improve your situation is to help improve somebody else's situation. And this is an incredibly powerful thing. And it really shapes our entire world. And so when you have all of these predictions about economic collapse, and this and that, they sort of presuppose this falsity, that whatever is happening will just continue to happen without any intervention. That's absurd. You know, of course, people play on their environment, they play on the situation. And people are a resource, people solve problems by trying to improve their situation. And that's what makes the world go round. So

9:13 when you first saw, I mean, I thought that was a really fascinating kind of breakdown of how things can interact. And I definitely think you you are absolutely right, in the sense that particularly things like the economy or society or you know, whatever, they interact with each other in these ways that are really complex. And given your current situation, make it basically impossible to say, well, whatever is happening right now will just continue to happen without interruption, right? So you mentioned forecasting, this is something that I've been thinking about in my own business. So I want to ask you about So take, for example, the housing market, which is kind of your area of expertise, right? I look at that and say, okay, you've got millions and millions of people making every little tiny decision, you've got governmental decisions, you know, in factoring the interest rate and you Got foreign investment, you got all the all these players and all these things interacting with the system and changing the rules of the system. And I look at that, and I say like, I don't know what's going to happen, I don't know what's going to happen today, much less tomorrow, much less the day after. So how do you go about thinking about forecasting such a deeply complex system? Is it simpler than I'm making? It? Is it you gotta have its, you know, supercomputer running the math in the background? I mean, look, you know, I think the, the way to think about it is, they say that the study of economics was created to make astrology look respectable.

10:36 So there you go. And, you know, look, he, it is very hard to predict things in markets and economy, because there are so many actors that are playing on the system, and you just don't know what decisions all those actors will make. And when they, you know, do make decisions, it impacts every other thing. But let's just take interest rates in the housing market for a moment. Okay, and I'll share a couple of slides with your audience. So if they're, if they're watching on video, they can see this, if they're listening only on audio, I'll just explain it. So basically, let's look at interest rates in the current housing market, the mortgage rate predictions now are getting pretty optimistic. It's been a rough year and a half, with these massive interest rate increases that we've had the fastest interest rate increases in history. And so, you know, this is what they're forecasting by the end of the year, under 6%. Okay, in terms of 30 year fixed rate mortgages. Now, that's pretty phenomenal. Let's think about what is going to happen if this forecast comes true. I mean, look, rates are coming down, and they will come down further. Exactly when is only really up to Jerome Powell and the Federal Reserve. Okay. But that's the direction no one could disagree with that. So why don't we take a look at how many people can afford to buy the median price house based on the mortgage rates, which are essentially the mortgage payment.

So right now we'll use a baseline of 7%. And I know it's entertaining, okay, this is just for discussion. But if the rate drops from seven to 6.5, that means in additional 2.8 million people can now afford a single family home, if it drops to 6% 5.4 million additional people can now afford that house. And the reason and these two are in green, because they're very likely to happen. Okay, these interest rates, but I put this one in yellow, because I thought at the time I made this chart, month and a half, two months ago, this was unlikely, I put this one in yellow 5.5%. But if that happens, 7.7 million new buyers can enter the market. Now, we don't know what will happen. And we don't know how many of these people would actually become buyers, just because they can afford to buy a house doesn't mean they will buy a house. So let's just assume that only. And I think this is pretty conservative. Only 1/3 of them would be interested in buying the house and entering the market to buy. So they would start looking at houses, they would start bidding on houses, they would start making offers. And some of them will actually buy most of them would right if they're in the market. So if this happens, let's just round off this first cut at say 1 million new people enter the market. And at this one, let's say you know, just under 2 million people enter the market in here, let's say you know, two and a half people enter the market. Two and a half million people enter the market to buy a house. Well, how much inventory can the market supply and for them, right? The most fundamental law of Economics is supply and demand. It's really quite simple. So how much inventory can the market supply to these new people entering the market?

Not including all the people that are already in the market buying? Let's just not give them any credit at all? Well, this is our inventory. We ended the year with 499,000 homes for sale. So let's call it a half million homes. Now. There's about 140 million housing units in the United States, only half a million of them are for sale. That's insane. I mean, we have a massive inventory shortage. And I know there are people out there that have been predicting doom and gloom for I mean, there are many on YouTube. I screenshot their thumbnails predicting doom and gloom for the last four years, but they're many they've been doing them any longer than that much longer than that. Okay. And they all say the inventory shortage is not true that the market is going to crash that we're going to see a 35% reduction in housing prices, and they have been wrong, wrong. wrong and wrong again, and they just won't quit. They keep being wrong. And frankly, they're misleading people and causing millions of people to miss opportunities. Now, it's interesting, Dan, that if someone if you go to someone for investment advice, and they give you bad investment advice in our country, you could sue them. Right? But if someone gives you bad investment advice, and the advice is not to invest, and you miss out on 45%, home price appreciation, why isn't anybody suing them?

It's an interesting question. Because the biggest cost in life is usually opportunity cost. Yeah, I mean, think about it. If you invest in a deal, and the deal doesn't go well, and you lose money, how much are you going to lose? Maybe you'd lose 20% of your money. 30% of your money. That's the downside, right? And with real estate, because it's a multi dimensional asset class, there are really so many ways to make money. We're just talking about the Super simplistic cut of price. That's all we're talking about so far. I mean, you know, there's a lot of ways you can make money in a market with prices declining, right? But that's a longer discussion. So we're just talking about this very simplistic, one dimension, which is price. Okay. So let's look at inventory year over year from a year ago, at this time inventory is down by about 10%. And from the pre COVID era, it's down by 50%. Now, during COVID, we saw the lowest inventory in our history, only 240,000 homes were for sale at the worst lowest inventory point. But one of the questions I always ask on my podcast and my YouTube channel, is this question that I think is really life's most important question. In fact, I did not invent the question. But my listeners call up the Jason Hartman question. Okay. And the question is, and this question, damn, you could ask in any area of life, not just economics, anything, anything? It really is, the question drives human knowledge of anything. The only way we know anything is by asking ourselves this question, compared to what? That's the most important question in life, about anything compared to what? Because when we have the reference point of comparison, then we are able to make educated decisions. So it begs the question, what is the right amount of housing inventory, almost every expert will tell you, it's about 1.2 to 1.4 million homes for sale at any given time. And if you think about it, 1.4 million would be about 1% of the housing stock would be for sale at any given time.

So now, we have very low inventory. If you look at it, like if you visualize the sink in your kitchen, and you visualize the drain, as the buyer demand, sucking up the inventory, and you visualize the faucet as new homes coming up for sale, right. And then you visualize the basin of the sink has told the current inventory while you have is since the rates went up, you have a drain that has become clogged, demand has declined. No question housing man, demand has declined. Now normally, when demand declines, the sink would start filling up but it hasn't because the faucet is that a trickle? Hardly any inventory is coming up for sale. Why is that? Well, one of the biggest factors in why there's so little inventory is the fact that during the COVID era, when we saw the lowest interest rates quite literally in 5000 years, and I'm not kidding when I say that there are historians that have tracked interest rates back to ancient Egypt, okay, 5000 years. I'm not kidding. Okay. read a great book by the late David Graber called debt, the first 5000 years. It's an excellent book, okay. And he shows you the chart, okay, right in that book. But there are other sources too. And so we have these super low rates, and virtually everybody in the country either bought a new house, or refinance their existing house. So we're left in this position where 25% of the country has a mortgage at or below 3% and 65% of the country has a mortgage at or below 4%. Now that's of the people Dan have mortgages, but guess what? 42% of the country has no mortgage at all. They own their homes free and clear. Now, the one ingredient you must have, if you want to have a real estate crash, there's absolutely one completely necessary ingredient. I mean, you can't make an omelet without eggs. Okay, so the necessary ingredient is millions of distressed homeowners that become millions of distressed home sellers. And we have the complete opposite of that right now. We have 10s of millions of very comfortable homeowners They refuse to put their house up for sale because their deal is so good.

And here's the big mistake people made. When they saw the interest rates go up, all the crash bros renewed their opinions that we were going to have a real estate crash. And they did it by myopically looking at the reality of a new buyer entering the market. And the reality was that housing had the lowest affordability in 40 years for decades, low affordability, and the market just seized up, it kind of froze, where volume went way down. But the prices kept appreciating, and so few people could understand that they just couldn't, like, why would that happen, right. And the reason it happened is because the existing holders of housing inventory refused to sell it, because their deal is so good. And they have 27 to 28 years left on that incredibly good deal. Their mortgages won't come do it, they will make the last payment until 2053. Right? They're not selling, okay. And this is the poison pill that the Federal Reserve has put into the housing market. And when I say poison pill, it sort of depends what side of the equation you're on, right? It's a poison pill if you're trying to buy a property, because this is the pill that will keep inventory constricted for many years to come.

21:30 Let's find motivated seller leads online but don't know where to start. Download our FREE motivated seller keyword report today, AdWords nerds have spent over $5 million this year researching the most profitable keywords for finding motivated seller leads. And you can grab these exact keywords when you download our report at www dot AdWords nerds.com/keywords. First of all, that was a really incredible explanation I've never heard it explained so clearly before. So that was really helpful for me. Yeah, thanks. So if I could extrapolate from that, right? What we would probably expect from that situation as like, let's say your real estate investor, you're buying and flipping, you're holding whatever you're doing, right? The challenge is going to be for those folks finding deals in the first place. Not necessarily disposing of the deals, because the demand is still high. If you have a deal, you can flip, you're gonna make the money, the challenges on the sort of lead generation lead acquisition side. Yeah. Okay. So that makes a lot of sense that definitely jives with like, I think what I you know, my business is such a one little corner, right of real estate. And so I always say it's like, it's like, I'm looking at a little window and have to kind of guess what else is going on in the world? Because I just don't necessarily get it. So that definitely lines up with my experience. I'm curious, when you work with investors, and you know, like you said, you work with people who haven't done their first deal, the people who are already really successful and just growing. When you talk to investors today, what do you tell them about what they're going to see in that marketplace? When they jump in there? And they try to, you know, let's say, do their first deal or do their fifth deal? What should they expect? What are there going to be their difficulties? Do you basically just say, like, hey, it's a numbers game, and you got to stick to it? Well, how do you advise people?

23:23 I'll tell you something, I have been doing this for a very long time, probably longer than almost anybody you'd interview on your show. Okay. And I have never heard a client say, in almost 10,000 real estate deals that either I have personally done for people as a broker, or my companies have done for people. Okay. 10,000 deals, I'm close to that number. I don't know the exact amount because I failed to keep counting after 90,000. But but it's a rough estimate. I'm getting close to 10,000. Okay, so here's the thing. Nobody ever says, Boy, that was such a great deal. Until they wait a couple of years, then they look back and they think that was a great deal. Okay, every deal looks like a good deal in the rearview mirror. It always seems too expensive at the time. And if you think about it, anything you buy on a that's you know, not just a thing with a price tag on it, anything you buy his on, like an auction basis, or any kind of competitive market, you know, if you go to a Sotheby's auction and buy a piece of art, or if you buy a house, sitting on the market, right? Anything you buy, you're overpaying for it. What do I mean by that? Well, let's let's unpack that for a minute. If you were under pain, the seller wouldn't have sold it to you. It was clearly worth more to you than it was to them. And let's take a house for an example. There's a house that sitting on the market for 30 days the market is aware of the house. It's in the multiple listing service. It's on Zillow. It's on Redfin, everybody knows it's there for sale, but you're the only sucker that comes, actually buys it. Right?

Okay, you overpaid. Anybody could argue that you overpaid, right? Because no one else wanted it until you came along. But that's the way it always works with everything. Okay? Everything. When that meeting of the minds occurs, the buyer overpaid, because there wasn't another person who was willing to pay more. Okay? So, like, just if you think of it that way, you're never going to feel like your deal was the greatest deal on earth until you wait a while, and someone else comes along and wants to pay more than you paid. Right? And, you know, because of the natural scarcity of housing, and how it's very hard to duplicate, unlike silly assets, like NF Ts, for example, non fungible tokens for people in the crypto world, those are infinitely duplicatable, right? There is a hard core constraint on housing, okay, whether it be through land use, or just the commodities used to build a house, think of it, a house is nothing more than a set of what I call packaged or assembled commodities, copper, wire, class, steel, concrete, petroleum products, energy, labor, costs, you know, wood, right, all these ingredients of that build a house, right, and those ingredients are hard to make and scarce. And they don't tend to get disrupted by technology. Whereas because they're built of atoms, atoms are hard to duplicate bits on a computer are easy to duplicate, you know, like, remember, you know, back in 1999 to 2001, we had this this.com revolution, right, that was the first.com bubble. And what these investors in all these tech companies believed at the time during that mania, when the stock market was going through the roof, and then it subsequently crash. They believed that if you had a product to sell or service to sell, and you got a website, you could reach the whole world, because technology's infinitely scalable on the web. And they were right. But here's what they didn't realize your competitors could also reach the whole world, right? And you were just a mouse click away from going to the competitor. So there's no scarcity in that. But in real estate, there's a lot of real scarcity. Okay. Okay.

27:31 So I think that was really insightful. I think the thing about scarcity, too, it really makes a lot of sense. And also, it reminded me of, you know, when you're talking about how every deal looks great in hindsight, are good deals are great in hindsight, right? But they look bad at the time, it reminded me of here, I remember where I heard this might be a Charlie Munger thing. But it was like every good every great investment is a bad idea at the time that you make it right. Because if it was a good idea that would be priced into the price, you bought the debt? And because it's not, that means everybody thinks you're an idiot, you know, I mean, it's like, so I think that makes all the sense in the world. Do you find that people particularly investors get, you know, you talked about a lot about inflation, are people kind of anchored in their minds to like the price they paid three years ago, and that kind of holds them back? Like they go to do a deal? And they're like, this house is super overpriced, it doesn't make any sense, because they're kind of anchored at a previous inflation rate. Does that happen to people? Do you think that's affecting people? Or is it more just like people having sticker shock, and they're having trouble kind of pulling the trigger on a deal? That really would be a good idea what nobody

28:39 thinks about is? I mean, in 1970, everybody thought buying your first house was too expensive. And guess what, in 1980, they thought the same thing. And in 1990, they thought that and in 2000, they thought that and in 2010, they thought that too, right? Nobody thinks it's cheap when they buy it. Okay. It's only after some time has passed that it seems cheap. Yeah. because inflation is just this persistent thing. That it you know, I mean, I talk a lot about inflation, and unfortunately, we don't have time to go into it today. But you know, I'm, I'm kind of the go to expert on inflation, but I will leave your listeners with one clue about it. Okay. I created a strategy. And I actually trademarked this because I was becoming so known for it. I filed the trademark. It's a mouthful, though. It's called inflation induced debt destruction. Okay, say that 10 times fast. Inflation, destruction, destruction. Yeah. And what it is, it's the hidden wealth creator with real estate, because just very simply, I mean, I have, you know, hours more content on this, but very simply think about it this way. If, if everybody listening or watching was to go to their favorite website, Jason hartman.com. And if they were to go to Jason hartman.com and click on Prop buddies and buy four of those properties for sale. Okay, and you know, see those properties were like, you know, $400,000 or $300,000 Each, okay? They're, you know, little entry level rental properties, okay? So they were to buy four properties and take out mortgages against those properties totaling $1 million, okay, they get their first mortgage statement, or they look at their loan documents, and they say, Hey, I just borrowed a million dollars.

Now, say, for example, they got interest only loans, just to keep it simple, they probably wouldn't get amortized loans, meaning you're paying principal and interest, but let's just assume it's interest only for simplicity. So they're not paying off any of the mortgage balance, or their tenants aren't paying off any of the mortgage balance, they're paying interest only. So after 10 years, the mortgage balances are the same. They look at their mortgage statements, 10 years from now, and they say, Hey, I still owe a million dollars. But in 10 years, a lot of inflation will have occurred. And inflation destroys the value of our savings, our stocks, our bonds, and thankfully, our debt. So I like to joke and say debt is my favorite four letter word. Okay? Because inflation induced debt destruction occurs. So let's just unpack this a little more. In the past 10 years, there has been about 27% inflation, or sorry, there's been more than that. The study I was looking at was from 2011 to 2021. Okay, okay, because I have an example I talked about that. So the inflation rate, according to the consumer price index, was about 27%, in that 10 year period. So someone borrowed the million dollars in 2011. And it was interest only until 2021. And they looked and they say, Hey, I still owe a million dollars, what's up, in reality, that million dollar loan balance has been debased or reduced or paid off by inflation to the tune of $270,000 27%. Because the dollars you borrow it at are the value at the time you borrow it, you get a million dollars, and you could spend a million and it's still worth a million, but 10 years later, a million is only worth, you know $630,000. So now, you basically had a $270,000 freebie, inflation has given you a gift of over a quarter of a million dollars. It's incredible.

32:30 That's why I never thought of that. I mean, everybody's heard of the thing where it's like, oh, you know, your investment? It's because of inflation. You know, you got to factor that in. I never really thought about it in terms of debt. But that's awesome. When it comes to debt. Yeah, the debt becomes the inflation asset. Yeah. Okay. It's the greatest thing ever. But it only it doesn't work on all debts. Well, it sort of works on all debts. But you know, you wouldn't want to have credit card debt or expensive debt, or debt against depreciating assets. But when you have debt against appreciating assets, and the debt is paid by someone else called a renter or a tenant, it's like the ultimate formula there. That's why That's why so many people get rich with income property. And they don't get rich in the stock market. And they don't get rich in the bond market. And they don't get rich owning gold. They get rich with real estate. Yeah, because it's got these multi dimensional characteristics.

33:25 So we aren't even scratching the surface. And I know we're coming up on our time. So I want to be respectful of that. But I had we were talking before you are actually you are leading a cruise. So it's like for real estate investors. So tell people about this. Because I know there's a lot of people listening, there's like, clearly there is a lot that you have to teach, and a lot that people are gonna want to know. So like, what's this cruise all about? Like, let people in on them? Yeah, yeah. So we've got a cruise coming up in April on the beautiful brand new celebrity apex with Celebrity Cruises and leaves out of Fort Lauderdale. And you can go to Jason hartman.com. Right at the top of Jason hartman.com. You can click on the link for the information on the cruise. And join us it's a mastermind cruise, where you'll be hanging around a bunch of investors and experts and me. And you know, we have two days at sea. And during those two days at sea, we're going to spend some of that time in the conference room learning. We're not going to go for real long. This is a vacation. You know, I don't know how long I can keep people's attention on a cruise ship with all kinds of fun things to do and that kind of stuff. But, you know, so we'll have some education and some fun in a nice relaxed atmosphere. And we really have found over the years that that's where the best learning and networking takes place. So if you want to really start hanging out with like minded people, you know, this is the only way to take a vacation is with like minded people who are going where you want to go, right? What you should join us for that. So just go to Jason hartman.com and you Couldn't get all the info about it. That's so awesome. Do you do a lot of those? No, it's only the second one we've ever done. So we don't do a lot of them and we don't do so many live events anymore. They just take an awful lot of work and time. So this might be our only one this year.

35:15 Wow. All right. Well, definitely go check that out. Jason hartman.com. You can go check that I mean, I've never been on cruise never 20 cruises. They're awesome. I love cruises. Yeah. All right. So I'm, I'm down to check it out. You should also by the way, if you're listening to this and you want to learn even more, Jason, you have a podcast is called the create wealth created wealth creating created. Yep, the creating wealth show as my podcast or you can just look up Jason Hartman on any podcast platform or on YouTube. And you can, you know, learn a lot more, it's all free. So just take advantage of all that great free content. Alright, I will definitely do that. And I cannot tell you, I really appreciate the analytical and sort of data driven approach that you bring to this. I think that's really refreshing and awesome. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise. Dude, I really, really appreciate a thanks, Dan, Happy investing to you and your listeners. All right, that is going to be it for this week's episode of the REI marketing nerds podcast. As always, you can get this episode show notes and all our past episodes at AdWords nerds.com. Or just wherever you get your podcasts and hey, by the way, if you can leave us a review. I really appreciate it. I read every single one and they help other people find the show. been doing this for many years now. Many, many years seems wild to think about. We are going strong and could not do that without you. So thank you for being here. I truly appreciate you and I will talk to you again next week. Cheers.

This is thepodcastfactory.com