Episode #75 – Using Leverage To Scale Your Real Estate Investing Business, with Dave Payerchin

You're listening to the “REI Marketing Nerds” podcast, the leading resource for real estate investors who want to dominate their market online. Dan Barrett is the founder of AdWords Nerds, a high-tech digital agency focusing exclusively on helping real estate investors like you get more leads and deals online, outsmart your competition, and live a freer, more awesome life. And, now, your host, Dan Barrett.

Dan: All right, everybody. Welcome to this week's episode of the REI Marketing Nerds podcast. As always, this is Daniel Barrett here from AdWordsNerds.com. How are you? I hope you're having an awesome day. I am going to tell you your day is about to get better. We have an absolute fire episode for you today. [0:01:01]

This week I am interviewing Dave Payerchin. I first met Dave at a high-level mastermind for investors that we both belong to and Dave immediately struck me two different ways. First of all, he's a really high-energy guy. He's incredibly fun to be around. Just a real charmer, really charismatic, so that really stuck with me.

But then, two, Dave is an incredibly insightful and incisive thinker about real estate investing. He is not someone that is just like a bull in a China shop going out there and just doing whatever. He is very thoughtful. He's very precise. He's super smart, and I was really hopeful about this conversation going into it. I'm going to tell you that he over-delivered on every single level and I cannot wait for you to hear this. So, without any further ado, let's get right into this week's interview, my talk with Dave Payerchin.
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All right, everybody. This is Daniel Barrett and I am here with Dave Payerchin. He is from SellHouseColumbus.com, a super successful real estate investor out in the Columbus, Ohio area, investing in Columbus and all the surrounding areas of Central Ohio. Super excited to have him on the show. Dave, how are you man? What's going on? [0:02:20]

Dave: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on.

Dan: It’s my pleasure. We were talking before we jumped on the recording and you said you are the podcast master, so I am ready to jump in.

Dave: I should be interviewing you right now, quite frankly.

Dan: Why don’t you invite me on your show, man? I'll go on your show. I like being on podcasts.

Dave: I don’t know if I said I'm the podcast master, but I have had a successful ring of podcasts, simply because I've been through a lot of crap, and pretty much instead of talking about successes, I talk about failures and it tends to get a pretty good response.

Dan: Yeah, that's a huge thing, man. I think so many, specifically so many investors will never admit that they have failed. It's like it's only win, win, win, win, win. [0:03:08]

You and I are in a kind of a mastermind group together. This stuff that I always remember the most vividly from any time that we get together with those people are the people who tell the stories about “I got wiped out and here’s how I rebuilt.” Those stories really stick with you whereas the people who are like, My life has been a nonstop string of awesome victories and it’s hard to keep all that straight. So, that's awesome. I appreciate it.

Dave: I dig it, man, and I’ve got some good stuff to share with you and your listeners today, and I'm just grateful to be here, brother.

Dan: Yeah, man. Let’s start at the beginning. Let's talk about how you got into real estate. You can either say how you got into real estate or how you got into investing. I mean, I think we both know investing is kind of a ... I think most people don't know that investing exists, right? What was your entrance into this world? [0:04:03]

Dave: I'll tell you exactly what happened. I'm a kid from Cleveland, Ohio, born and raised, and I got to be a junior and a senior in high school, and graduated with 200 other kids in a very diverse school in the Cleveland area, East Cleveland area.

I was voted most outgoing. I was voted class clown, and I would go there like an actor because I was just out there and I got along with everybody. That's my claim to fame. You know how trendy or cliquey it is in any high school environment. I was friends with everybody, man. I never felt good about putting anyone down and I was just a people person from day one.

That was all fine and dandy, and I was voted these awesome things, but then when it came to what's next was I didn't have a chance to go to college. My family didn't have the money and I didn't have the grades, and quite honestly, it just wasn't in the cards. So, feeling a little bit embarrassed about that because a lot of my friends were going to college, I got the opportunity to move from Cleveland, Ohio, out to Phoenix, Arizona. I was 18 years old, 19 when I got out there, and I was just going to do a construction job. [0:05:05]

The year was 2001 and it was Phoenix, Arizona, and they were massively developing huge Del Webb communities and stuff like that. A kid from Cleveland—and Cleveland doesn't have the expansion of place like Arizona or Las Vegas or parts of California and Texas, and Cleveland doesn't see that, that type of growth—I literally was exposed to fields as far as the eye could see of just new development communities. I'd never seen anything like it.

I was working in construction during the day, so I was getting to see a lot of different construction type of stuff, and I wanted it to be successful and I wanted to show everybody back in Cleveland that I was something, because everybody else was going to college and I didn't, and got a little side hustle, so I was going to do construction during the day and then I did telemarketing at night, and I worked for MCI WorldCom, the old long-distance provider. [0:06:00]

I never knew what telemarketing was, but as soon as I started, I was the number one rookie out of training. I was one of the top 10 percent in the whole company and I was winning awards for my ability to sell on the phone. I never knew I could do that, but a long story short, man, the construction was out the window once I realized, hey, I could sell on the phone and make pretty good money for a kid my age.

And then, I wanted to be better. I'm always wanting to be better, and I'm a competitive guy and I want to be the best. I wasn't old enough to drink yet, so I was going to bookstores and I was reading books on sales, and in any bookstore right next to the sales books are the business books and the investing books, and I picked up a book and said, “Hey, I could make $1 million in real estate,” and it was all about the money for me, quite honestly. I wanted to be successful, so I got into real estate by reading books.

Dan: I think it was wild. It’s really kind of a similar story. At least, our overlap is the whole experience of just walking into a Barnes & Noble and going to books to the right of where you originally went through. [0:07:06]

I'm curious, the sales-over-the-phone thing is the superpower that jumps out at me, and it seems from your story that taps into a lot of your natural strengths of knowing how to relate to people and how to create a bond with people.
What was the experience learning how to sell on the phone for you? Was that something that came really easily? Was that something that you felt like you just naturally knew how to do? What was that experience?

Dave: It came very naturally to me. As soon as I got on the phone, I started becoming successful. I truly do believe, and I think there's a lot of training involved, and you constantly want to be training yourself, working on yourself and working on your salespeople, but I think there is some natural abilities, too. So, as soon as I got on the phone, I just started rocking and rolling, and I took a liking to it. Big call center. I'm wearing a headset and just closing deals. Once I realized that I could do it, I never went back to the construction thing. [0:08:04]

And then, I got away from that particular company at my entry level. Then, I started working for a bigger company that was commission-only and I was making six-figures. I was a 19- or 20-year-old kid making six-figures on the phone, and it was just all green lights for me. That was really at the beginning of my downfall, but it was a very natural thing for me to get on the phone and makes sales. I did it for years.

Dan: Why was it the beginning of your downfalls, specifically?

Dave: Because you give a 19- or 20-year-old kid from Cleveland, Ohio, with zero financial literacy, a good paying job and they're eating what they’ve killed, and they're responsible for their own results and they're getting results, it pumps the ego up very, very big. And then, I'm filling my mind full of real estate stuff and how to make millions of dollars, so now I'm going after the real estate thing. Now the year was 2005 and I'd been telemarketing for four years plus and saved up a little [sound dropped 0:09:01] and got my first marketing campaign. [0:09:04]

I think the first real estate course I ever purchased was Carleton Sheets’ right after the late night infomercial. That got a lot of good info, but I started sending letters and whatnot, and the year was 2005 in Phoenix, Arizona. What was going on in the marketplace in ’05, especially in places like Phoenix, do you recall?

Dan: No, I wasn't in real estate then. I got in significantly later than you did.

Dave: I’m sure you’ve heard.

Dan: But 2005 was obviously building up to 2008, so I'm assuming there's a lot of loans occurring and things like that.

Dave: Correct, yeah. Financing super loose and everybody's a real estate investor. You’ve ever seen The Big Short? That's what I was. Do you remember who the real estate investor was in the movie, the big short?

Dan: Who the actor was?

Dave: No. Who was the real estate investor character?

Dan: No, I don't remember off the top of my head.

Dave: It was the stripper. It was the stripper in the strip clubs and buying houses. That's what it was like in ’05 and ’06. Everybody was buying houses because loans were given out a dime a dozen. If you had a pulse and a signature, you were in. [0:10:07]

Basically, that fed into my ego even more because I quit the telemarketing and got full-time into real estate, driving in neighborhoods, finding junkers, tracking down the owners and I started wholesaling. In my very first fiscal year in business, Dan, I made 180 gees, and you give 180 gees to this egomaniac with no financial literacy, it's a ticking time bomb waiting to happen. So, by the time ’07 and ’08 came, I was already out of business. I was done, bankrupt, belly up.

I will share this. I did go file chapter 7 bankruptcy. I had some private money loans. Every single one of my private money lenders has always been paid back. I've never not paid a private money lender back. The banks and Washington Mutual, they were all out of business. They were going out of business. That all went to hell in a hand basket. But I always maintained my relationships and it was really the biggest rise in this massive fall, and it's what made me extremely humble and just respect money on a whole new level and respect success. It actually taught me cash flow. [0:11:11]

Eventually, a couple of years later, after I went broke, I put my tail between my legs and made my way back to the good old Buckeye State of Ohio because I wanted to start buying rentals. I realized it was like, Hey, I don't want to be a speculator. Things are not always going to just keep going up in value. I want consistent cash flow and I’d better learn that business really quickly or I'm going to be telemarketing.

Dan: Yeah.

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Dan: There’s a ton of stuff that we can dig into there. I think the whole experience of getting it and losing it, and then needing to get it again, I think is one of those things that shows up in a lot of really successful people's stories. [0:12:20]

But I want to jump into what you're doing now and I think there's a natural bridge there, because you're saying you're there for the cash flow, and I know right now that your investment business is very focused on the long-term, focused on buy and hold rather than, I think, the model that a lot of people think of when they think of real estate investing, which is to buy the thing, flip the thing and sell the thing.

Can you explain what your current model is really based around, and maybe how your past has informed where you're at right now in terms of your business?

Dave: A hundred percent, man. We still wholesale properties. We flip. We’ve sold a lot of turnkey properties. We sold turnkey properties for years, and I'm not opposed to flipping. In fact, anyone who's listening to this, if you're a real estate investor, you're going full-time in the game, you know darn well you’ve got to fill those cash flow gaps, man. You’ve got to keep the money coming in. You’ve got to keep the lights on. Really, wholesaling is a true means to an end in the real estate business and this is something I want to get in to here real quick. [0:13:19]

Our business right now, though, Dan, really, we're focused in on buying whole, and there's a certain type of property and product that we go after that's going to suit the portfolio and the lending requirements. We're all about using leverage. We're all about trying to tie up as much low-interest, long-term debt as we possibly can.

I understand finance now because I had lost it and I didn't understand finance before. I do now, and cash is not King. Cash flow is King. But when you're building a portfolio, you need to keep that revenue coming in because the bank is not going to lend to you if you can't show a profitable business. So, wholesaling has its need in this, but it's all about the long-term because, if all we do is wholesale, what are we going to be doing five or 10 years from now? You're going to be working for a buy and hold investor. That’s what you're going to be. [0:14:10]

You're an acquisitions guy now for somebody who has been building their portfolio. It's very much a long-term mindset simply because I don't want to be working five or 10 years now. I want to be doing other things. That's completely why I don't have a 401(k). I didn't go to college. This is it for me. So, I’d better build some assets, some cash flow, or I will be working, and this is my retirement.

Dan: Okay, I want to underline what you just said. I really love the way that you just put that, that the way to think about this is that it's not that it's one or the other thing. It’s that, if all you are doing is focusing on the immediate paid, what you're doing is you gave yourself a job and you're going to have a job in the future, working for someone else. So, building that long-term cash flow is supercritical. I just love that whole mindset. [0:15:06]

How did you build that into your investing business now? Because I think, again, investors tend to be very driven, very ambitious. It’s one of the reasons I love working with investors. There's this huge sense of energy for most people in this space. But how did you build that kind of longer-term focus into that kind of investing business?

Dave: What it was was that when I lost my butt in real estate back in Arizona, some of the people, some of the guys that were buyers of mine on my buyers list, because I was just wholesaling—didn't have any cash flow; didn't understand the stuff—the guys I used to sell to, guys out in Arizona, and they owned hundreds of properties, single-family homes, and they were very awesome, simple men who understood wealth-building and, basically, I saw what they had and I saw them ride out this fate. They knew it was a bubble. They were putting good financing in place. [0:16:03]

Just we all talk about all the crazy loan programs that were out there. Guess what else there was? A lot of really good, 30-year cheap money out there, and the guys who understood this business, they rode it out, and they not only rode it out, but they thrived because they were sitting on tons of dough once everything came crumbling down, because all the people who had no business owning a home soon left the home on the courthouse steps. These guys were sitting pretty with cash and just cleaning up, buying these things, pennies on the dollar. I still talk to these guys today, and I learned from mentors.

I went belly up and I really, truly realized—and I want you to hear this and I want your listeners to hear this—and, believe me, I just don't want to get the rap of I’m bashing on wholesalers and it's essential to our business, but all you are doing is investing in your wholesale company.

So, you're a real estate investor and you're flipping some houses. Great. We're all deal junkies. I'm right there with you. I love closing the deal and cashing the check. You're building this business. I'm reinvesting my profits right back into the business, my staff. I'm building this office and I’m building this business. [0:17:08]

Here's the deal. The problem with that is if all you do is wholesale, typically the sellers who sell to us, they're only selling us one property. It's not like we're building a book of business. This is an insurance brokerage where the people are going to buy from us year after year. It's not an auto-mechanic shop where the people are going to keep coming to us for their car service. They sell to us once and then they're gone. And then, what are you left with?

Sure, you wholesaled the house and you cashed a check. That's the highest taxable money you can possibly put in your bank account, so when the government has taken their cut, now if you don't even keep that cash and you're reinvesting in this business—I have this office, whatever happens—you have no money in the bank. But you don't even have a business because it is not salable. You're investing in the business, but you invest in something you can sell for an eventual return.

Have you ever heard of a wholesaler who sold their practice? No, it doesn't work that way. You're not investing in a business. You're investing in the deal junkie in getting highly-taxable money that can all go away if you don't stop. If you stop working, the money stops working, and there has just got to be a better way, and that's a huge thing. [0:18:19]

A lot of people think they're investing, but it's a big fugazi, man. They're putting money out and they're taking a lot of risk, and building, building, building. What are you really building? It's a house of cards, man. You've got to build that long-term, and finding that balance I really feel is going to serve a lot of people listening.

Dan: Yeah, I think that's the huge question. It's like if you stop working, does the business stop running? At that point—I think you're right—it's not a business; it's a practice. Right?

Let’s talk about how people can start applying this directly, because I think I'm not even an investor. You’re already causing me to think about this long-term. One of the things we were talking about before we jumped on the call was the relationship people have to their jobs. [0:19:01]

Actually, in the podcast that would come out immediately before this one, I was talking to an investor. He's having a lot of success. He's in a really tough market in Seattle, so it's a tough, expensive market, and he's a full-time engineer running his real estate investing business on the side, and that has given him a lot of advantages.

One of the things that we were talking about was maximizing the leverage you get out of your W2 job. Can we talk about that a little bit? If you're an investor and you’re getting started, and it’s still early for you, how do you decide when to jump full-time into the investing space versus when to toe the line? Because there are a lot of people out there that feel that you have to go all in. You have to commit. You’ve got to burn the bridge. You’ve got to burn the ships and all that stuff. How do you think about that decision?

Dave: First of all, you can still make rational decisions and be fully committed to a business or a relationship, or anything, without burning the ships. It's very irrational for anything. Ultimatums don't work, right? Ultimatums don't work. They don't work in conversations, relationships, business, partnerships or anything. [0:20:04]

I understand that mindset of, hey, I want to go sign up a big office lease and it’s going to light that fire under me. That's a very immature thing, and I can say that because I was that man. So, it kind of goes back to, look, what are you really investing in? Oh, I want to light this fire under me. Why? What are you really wanting? You're wanting freedom. Everybody gets involved in this real estate business because you want freedom ultimately.
What was your question?

Dan: How do you think through the question of how do I make the decision with this?

Dave: Check this out. We live in a day and age where we get hits of dopamine and hits of serotonin every time somebody likes one of our social media posts. I'm the same way. It feels good. It feels like you're being seen and it feels like you're acknowledged.

We live in a day and age where you post a nice boring post that says, Hey, I'm starting my real estate investing career. I'm going to buy one house, and then I'm going to continue to work and save up for a down payment, and I'm going to do real estate as my side hustle and be fiscally responsible. And probably eight months from now, I'll have enough to buy another house. This little game plan is going to take me whatever, five years, but I'm going to have 10 maybe more houses and a lot of them are chopping away at this debt. I’ve got really good terms on the money. [0:21:23]

So, here's the big thing. We live in a day and age where if you post it bad, Hey, I've got a five-year plan, even a 10-year plan, you might get a couple people to like it. As soon as you say, Hey, I'm quitting my job today and burning the ships, thousands of people love your post. Why? It's so silly, though.

Dan: It’s got to have a cool photo, a cool picture of you standing on a beach and cursive letters over it saying, A hundred percent committed to the grind. Quitting my job, that kind of thing, right? That's what gets likes.

Dave: And you know what? I've made this mistake as well and I got a local real estate group, and I get the youngsters. Everybody's fired up, ready to burn the ships. [0:22:05]

I’ll tell you this. As soon as you quit that job and you have a nice little steady W2, you can take that W2 and you can walk right down to the bank and you get yourself a wonderful 4 percent, 30-year mortgage. As soon as you walk away from that job because you want to light this fire under you, guess what you just did? You just signed up for 12 percent money because you're not getting any mortgages. How are you going to build a long-term portfolio?

It's not about looking cool. It's about being rich, right? It's not about being right. It's about being rich. It's not about looking cool.

So, what do you want? You want to freedom. The only way you're going to build freedom is to maximize the benefits of real estate. You've got to be able to buy and hold. When you hold on to real estate, it's taxed in a way lower tax bracket than if you're flipping.

Number two, you get depreciations. You can now write off depreciation from your rentals against your earned income from that W2 job. You're saving money across the board and you're not paying any taxes. To understand the finance piece, Dan, is so key. [0:23:05]

That 30-year money, think about this. Let's say, you have this loan in place for 15 or 20 years. It’s inflation. When you're using tomorrow's dollars to pay for today's loan, you're getting this loan and it's against an asset that's producing a positive cash flow for you today, but you don't have to pay this asset off until tomorrow's dollars. Our tomorrow's dollars, are they going to be worth more or less than today's dollars?

Dan: Tomorrow's dollars are going to be worth …

Dave: Way less.

Dan: Less. Yes. See, the second you ask me a question, I get self-conscious about my answer. I'm like, I'm going to say something dumb right now. But, yeah, they're going to be worth less. Money is going to inflate, etc., so it can be worth less.

Dave: For your listeners, let's compare inflation to baseball cards. If you have that Honus Wagner, the most valuable baseball card, why is it the most valuable? Because there are only a couple of them out there. [0:24:05]

If they have an old Don Mattingly card that they've printed tens of thousands, tens of millions of them, how much is the Don Mattingly card really worth? It's not worth a lot because there's so many of them on the street.

The same thing goes with money. They're printing so much money, obviously, it's going down in value. So, when you can use tomorrow's dollars, which are worth less to pay for an asset that's going to pay you positive cash flow today is a no brainer when you start to think about that, but the only way you're going to get your hands on that good money, that good cheap money, is to work with banks.

Banks have the cheapest money and banks are way more likely to work with you when you have that good old, cozy W2 job. And that’s why—it doesn't sound sexy. It doesn't sound cool on social media—I’m here to let you know, the more of that long-term, low-interest debt you can sign up for against good, true, cash-flowing assets, it's going to set you so much farther ahead than the guy who quit his job and didn't have access to that money, and now he's got to scrounge and keep wholesaling, and not really getting anywhere. You're not really getting anywhere. [0:25:11]

Dan: Yeah, you have the invisible cost there, right? We get used to whatever we have in front of us and we don't think about what it could have been, the sort of rates at which we could have gotten maybe if we hadn't left our job. So, it's an invisible cost for people.
Basically, when you're talking about tomorrow's money versus today's money, you're really talking about leverage, right?

Dave: Yeah.

Dan: I know leverage is a big concept to you in terms of how you think about your business, how you think about investing. How do we use that idea of leverage? How do I maximize the amount of leverage I have in my business and my life? How do I use that concept and grow my investing business?

Dave: Without a doubt. This is what I have learned. Here's another lesson. A deal that looks good on paper oftentimes—I'm in the Midwest. Any one of your listeners who's in the Midwest can attest to this—you see really good deals coming across the REIA meeting, coming across Craigslist. It's like, wow. [0:26:08]

That's why the California people love it and they are looking at the Midwest, Iowa, Ohio. I've seen so many West Coasters get skinned like a cat coming to the Midwest. Who do you think you are? Who do you think you are? I’m not [unclear 0:26:23].

Dan: Yeah, there is a thing where it's like, I'm used to houses that cost, like, $5 million, and you look at deals in the Midwest and you're like, Oh my God, this is amazing. Right? But you're saying there’s sort of an East-West Coast hubris going on.

Dave: Exactly. They're living in la-la land and out-of-state investing is extremely difficult. We have helped a lot of people invest out of state. Don't get me wrong. We've sold hundreds of turnkey properties and taken care of these people. It's been a ton of work, though, on us.

But with that being said, not all deals, just because it looks good on paper, is always a good deal, because a good deal is something that you can use leverage, going back to this, when you don't have to use your own money. Where are you going to get the money from? It's going to come from a private investor. It's going to come from a hard-money lender. It’s going to come from a bank. Right? [0:27:13]

So, where's the cheapest money? It's going to come from a bank. If that is in your mind like, I’ve got to get this bank money because that's what's going to create the cash flow, if you're too much on the low end, even though it looks cool on paper, guess what? The minimum loan amount for most banks, pretty much every bank, is 50,000, all right. The maximum LTV that these banks are lending to guys like me, and the guys and gals who are listening, the bank only wants to give you 75 percent of the value.

If you can only get 75 percent of the value, but the minimum loan amount is $50k, that means that anything that's worth around 75, 85, you're cutting it way too close. Chances are, just because it looked good on paper, you can buy this thing and rehab it, first off, rehabbing in the C-class is the highest risk you can possibly do. And then, you run the risk of not being able to refinance this thing because the bank won't even give loans down there. [0:28:14]

So, just because something looks good on paper and it's got this cash flow potential, I’m here to let you, no, not all that glitters is gold, especially with real estate, and big mistakes happen in these rougher areas. I think if somebody is just kind of starting out, maybe they're just getting into real estate and they've done a couple of wholesale deals there and wanting to set up the financial freedom we're talking about, here's the name of the game, Dan. People need to understand rehabbing.

I don't care. If you're building a portfolio, you've got to have some knowledge of rehab, but that is the highest risk you can possibly take, and then, when you're rehabbing in the C-class, I think a huge mistake for people is taking on too big of a rehab. Go for the bread and butter stuff, I'm telling people, where you can get maximum bank leverage. That’s what we do in our marketplace. [0:29:04]

What you want to look at in any market that you're investing in is, What is the value and where’s the rent-to-value ratio? because a bank is only going to refinance you out at maximum LTV, if it hits a certain debt-service coverage ratio, meaning it needs to be rented for an amount that the bank is comfortable with that's going to cover the payments, and if it's cutting it too close, again, it doesn't matter if the value is there. If it's not rented for enough, now the bank doesn't want to give you that 75 percent loan to value.

What I am getting at is this. Pay attention to the values and the rents, because the goal of what we're trying to do is get maximum LTV on cash-out refinances that allow you to put very low-interest and long-term loans in place, and you can keep this thing for the long-term.

Dan: Yeah, I think some of the stuff you're talking about, as you were saying, not all that glitters is gold. There's a big difference between potential and actual payoffs, and I think the whole focus that you have on shifting people's attention away from that potential, away from that immediate deal, towards that long-term impact on their business and their livelihood, that's such a refreshing corrective to what typically goes on in the investing space. [0:30:26]

I really hope that everybody listening to this would, and I would highly encourage, go back to the beginning and just start taking notes on everything that we've talked about because it’s absolutely huge.

I'm coming up on time, so I have to cut this short, but this was an amazing conversation, Dave, and I really appreciate it. People that are listening to this, they know they can go to SellHouseColumbus.com. Is there anywhere else that you want people to reach out to you, connect to you online, or is that the best place?

Dave: No, Instagram, man, @therealdavep [@ the real Dave P]. I'm always putting out real estate stuff. And I'm a normal guy, so if anyone has any questions, feel free to message me on there and we'll take it from there. [0:31:04]

Dan: All right, cool. SellHouseColumbus.com and Instagram @therealdavep. We will have links to both of those at the show notes page for this. You can go to AdWordsNerds.com/podcast to find this episode.

But, Dave Payerchin, thank you so much for coming on, dude. This was amazing. I definitely want to have you back. If you're going to come back someday, I would love to have you back because this was a massively valuable interview and I really appreciate you for coming on and sharing that with our audience.

Dave: Thanks for having me, brother.

Dan: All right, man. Thank you so much. And I will talk to everybody soon.
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That’s it for this week's episode. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Dave. I know I definitely did and I will definitely do my best to get him back on the show.

But if you are not a member of our Facebook group, you need to go and jump into that thing. It's incredibly valuable and we are dropping really good content in there every single day. You can get there by going to AdWordsNerds.com/group or by going to Facebook and typing in “REI Marketing Nerds”. [0:32:01]

And just a quick moment to say thank you. If you listen to this show, I can't tell you how much it means to me. We are coming up on … I don't know, it's like almost two and a half years or three years now. I don't even know how long we've been doing this, but a really, really a significant amount of time for me put into the show, and the fact that you come back every week, you subscribe, you download the episodes, you let me know what you think in the review section, you let me know what you think in the group, it means the world to me. And so, I want to let you know that I appreciate you. If you like the show, pass it on to a friend. I would really appreciate that.

Without any further jibber-jabber on my part, I will see you next week. Hope you're having an awesome time, and I’ll talk to you soon. [Inaudible 0:32:39].

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